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Interviews

Zhai Yongming Vs. Cao Kefei: Theater is like Three-dimensional Poetry

Cao: I consider it fortunate that we have collaborated in theater before. I find that when poets write scripts, it's different from what a playwright does. Playwrights often become constrained by the story, plot, dialogues, and even stage directions. In contrast, good poets possess a remarkable imagination for words and situations. They are not confined by the boundaries of the stage, allowing them more creative freedom. This poses a significant challenge for directors because you can't rely on the familiar; you have to venture into the unknown. Later on, I realized that most playwrights I admire were initially poets, or you could say they are poets.

Zhai: Poetry itself and theater share similarities, particularly the tension and imagination created through gaps or white spaces. If poetry can't stimulate your imagination, you won't be able to enter that space, and you'll find it uninteresting. Many people don't enjoy poetry because it doesn't engage their thoughts, and they never enter that space. In the past, ancient people were less busy, had fewer forms of entertainment, and spent their days looking at scenery, gazing at the moon, and reading poetry. In such a context, texts that were more difficult to understand but left room for imagination might have been more interesting. Reading something you don't fully comprehend can stimulate your imagination as you ponder it, making it an intriguing experience.

Cao: To me, theater is like three-dimensional poetry. The concept of "poetry" transcends language. In theater, elements such as space, the actors' bodies (including their voices), lighting, sound effects, and even multimedia imagery come together and interconnect to form a meaningful whole. This complete composition is akin to a three-dimensional poem. A good theatrical work, for me, always contains an ineffable aspect that defies description. It has a part that you can't articulate or explain what it's trying to convey, much like good poetry. I believe theater should provide this space: it has concrete elements because it deals with people who perform, making it physical and tangible. Yet, it must also have an abstract aspect, a white space, which I consider crucial.

Zhai: There's a type of theater that follows the path of realism, like "Teahouse," which is more akin to a novel. It's influenced by the West and emphasizes storytelling. It is realistic theater. However, I prefer another form of script presentation, which is more fluid and akin to the expression in poetry. For instance, Nobel laureate Austrian playwright Elfriede Jelinek's scripts are primarily like this. She doesn't use a very realistic approach, doesn't follow a clear logic, and is essentially poetic. It represents a modern theatrical style, addressing many real-world issues. Gao Xingjian's early series of avant-garde theater works in China also share this characteristic. Personally, I lean more toward avant-garde theater's expression, which is closest to poetry. I wouldn't go down the path of writing realistic theater because, as a poet, I don't excel in that genre. Furthermore, traditional Chinese opera also shares commonalities with poetry. For instance, the earliest Kunqu opera scripts contained lyrics that were essentially poetry, perhaps even more condensed than modern poetry.

Cao: Simulating reality in theater undoubtedly falls short compared to well-executed television drama. The stage often presents a pseudo-reality. Even in so-called realistic theater like "Teahouse," there's still a sense of artifice. Today, reality can be more bewildering than we can imagine, and attempting to recreate reality on stage often results in poor attempts, with a lack of connection most of the time. So, I often think about how to find something genuine within our own limitations. I'm currently interested in a southern city and its themes, and it requires significant time for investigation and understanding, rather than relying solely on imagination. You need to physically explore to understand what happened and what the situation is. Only then can you transform it into material suitable for the theater. For example, when I directed "Chang'e" in Switzerland last October, I interviewed Chinese women who had married Swiss men. I learned about their lives between two cultures, how they perceived the differences and commonalities between cultures, and how they viewed their homeland while living abroad. This perspective is just a glimpse of reality, but I believe works derived from real-life experiences and narrated and performed by those who lived them are rich and interesting. They can establish a direct connection and interaction with the audience. Such theater is undoubtedly different from "amateur theater" because it employs professional theatrical techniques to present a different perspective of narration and narrators within the theater. Currently, I'm interested in the connection between documentary-style history and reality, the interplay between life and art, and the multiple identities of performers standing in the theater. I want a theatrical work to stand firmly on the ground while reaching out to the stars.

I think one's mindset is crucial. We shouldn't demand too much or have excessive goals. When assessing someone's work, you can essentially feel their attitude and whether there's something driving them. Even if a work is somewhat clumsy, that's okay, but it shouldn't be slick or pandering. It must have its own authenticity and personality. While creating my own works, I can sense my own mindset and whether I genuinely possess that thing. You have to be honest with yourself. Over the years, I've also directed and participated in various forms of theater productions abroad, and what struck me the most is how different their approach is from ours. They are more straightforward, focused, and, as a result, more creative.

Zhai: I'm quite selective, including with avant-garde theater. I've seen a lot, and there's a degree of fatigue. Because avant-garde theater is also forming clichés, it doesn't address real-world problems, and it often adheres to a particular style, presenting things that are neither here nor there. Many times, it becomes a formality, a show for the sake of a show, and it's often about the form rather than the substance. I find myself becoming more critical, including the current trend of white-collar theater and comedy theater. They are like assembling a bunch of skits; it's quite similar to the theater of university students. They are overly simplistic, sometimes a bit vulgar, and they aim for light-hearted entertainment, catering to the audience's tastes. Watching such plays makes it difficult to sit through.

Cao: I think this relates to the overall social environment. It might be necessary for each of us, including myself, to pause and ask ourselves about our inner motivations or what desires and impulses we still possess. Theater is meant to awaken inner desires, so it's like three-dimensional poetry.

Zhai: I watched your play "The Woman Who Attempts to Destroy Rituals" last year, and it greatly impressed me. The text of this play consists of different poems by 12 contemporary female poets, and it was open and free in its structure, opening up new possibilities. In fact, this is the type of theatrical form I aspire to. You can transform abstract works like poetry into a theatrical performance and then enhance it with music, acting, lighting, and, once it's presented, it becomes a very minimalist theatrical work.

Cao: In the later stages of developing this play, I felt an incredible sense of freedom. At the time, I was considering how to handle different themes and styles of texts because once poetry reached me, it had to become a physical thing. I was trying to find ways to turn it into a three-dimensional and imagistic "poem." Initially, it felt challenging to grasp, but as the actors became involved and brought their own interpretations and performances, it gave me a lot of confidence. Suddenly, during rehearsals, I felt a level of freedom that I had never experienced before. I realized that theater could be liberated from the constraints of characters and narrative, while still operating within a framework that allowed for substantial creative freedom.

Zhai: That's why limitations aren't necessarily a bad thing; they can challenge a person's talents. I believe this was your best work. In a restricted state, you managed to open up your creative process, your directing style, your ability to motivate actors, and your handling of various stage relationships. I believe this may be your most imaginative work, like being pushed to the brink and then finding new possibilities. It was a valuable challenge.

Cao: The rehearsal process and presentation of this play made me even more aware of the untapped potential of theater, as it continues to open up new pathways for me. Creating theater should first challenge oneself, and this play provided many areas to challenge and reflect upon. On the other hand, the depth of the text is crucial for me. Without this foundation, as a director, no matter how much effort I put into it, it would be in vain, perhaps just superficial. But it needs to have depth.

Zhai: So, what makes a good play? Firstly, it must have a compelling script. Secondly, the director's skills must be exceptional. Thirdly, on top of a well-developed and rich script, the actors' performances must be excellent. Nowadays, actors are becoming less refined; their performances lack subtlety. You see many actors who are either too exaggerated, too casual, too artificial, or lack personal charm. Actors themselves must have a sense of the theatrical, a keen grasp of performance, or a sense of restraint in their acting. I recently watched a British play called "To the Moon," which had only two actors on stage. They used a pile of garbage as props to represent the modern space race between the United States and Russia. It was reminiscent of classical Chinese theater, where only actors and props are used to depict vast scenes. This play managed to cover a lot of historical events in just one hour. It was incredibly concise, imaginative, elegant, and refined. It encompasses all the critical elements of theater. This is the tension that a good play should have, and after seeing it, I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Cao: It's the same for me; some plays make me want to leave before they're halfway done, some leave no lasting impression, and some moments from others pop into your mind at various times in life. In December last year, I watched a production of "Hamlet" by Germany's Hamburg Thalia Theater in Beijing, directed by a Belgian. The play deeply affected me. I've seen different versions of "Hamlet," but this one portrayed contemporary people's confusion and disorientation so convincingly, touching me profoundly and leaving me uneasy.

November 2011